My love for music has a lotto do with pure euphoria. When I go to make music, it’s like nothing else matters
What was it about making music that first got you hooked?
My love for music has a lot to do with pure euphoria. When I go to make music, it’s like nothing elsematters. Even if I’m having the worst day or week or whatever, making music still feels great. It brings me to the happiest place I can possibly be at.
Did you ever feel self-conscious making the kind of music that people might not expect?
I didn’t come into music trying to achieve anything. There are things to be achieved in music: if youwant to get to number one or win an award, there’s a way to do that. But that’s not why I was making music; it just gave me pure happiness to do it. SoI was like, “How many different ways can I do this and get the happiness from it?” That allowed met o do it my way every single time and not feel tired or like I’m failing or not reaching my goals.
Who inspires you?
Growing up, David Bowie was one of my favourite people. I feel like every time I’d do research on him, I’d find out something new – a new outfit, ora new character. He could change his mind freely. That’s what I think people don’t want to admit: that they changed their mind. I’m very comfortable with that in terms of how I want to dress, or the type of music I want to make, or who I want to be around. I have the freedom to change, and I exercise that as much as I can. This is the one life we havein this body. I’m gonna try to do as many things as I like, and to experiment as much as I can. I don’tknow any other way to be.
You describe your music as ‘genreless’, but you’re a big part of a scene that’s becomeknown as UK underground rap. How do you feel about that label?
I think the wording is lazy. I would call it overground. I liken it to the London transport system. With the underground train, you have to go down [away from the world] to board. But on the overground you could be walking through the high street and see the train passing. Some of these kids now are big. The likes of EsDeeKid are on the road, at festivals, [so] it’s not underground. In terms of my inclusion, I’m a massive part of it; it’s partly created by me, and I’m super-proud of it. I think sometimes it takes a group, and I’m proud of all the guys who are making their name and doing big things. I’m always in support of them. I keep my eyes on everyone.
What can we expect from your upcoming album?
Well, there are some dance elements in there. It will just be a new world for people, you know? It’s been finished for, like, ages, close to a year. [It was born out of a period of] a lot of fun. A lot of fun, but a lot of realisations, too, about life and the things I’ve been through, situations I’ve been in. I think it’s one of my most personal albums.
I think the wording is lazy. I would call it overground…Some of these kids now are big.
You’ve said that music is like therapy for you. Does opening up come more easily in your musicthan in life?
If I was in deep sadness and someone asked howI was, I don’t think I could ever answer that questionbetter than just thinking about it in my head,putting on a beat and rapping about it. I don’t really tell people a lot of my problems; I just put it in a song and talk to myself about it. That’s probably an other reason why I have such a love for music, because it helps me deal with things.
Has it ever led you to a breakthrough?
When I made [2019 track] Better Alone, [it helpedme to understand] how I feel. I didn’t understand why sometimes, as much as I love people, I would just leave. I didn’t understand that about myself– that’s my dawg or that’s my mum, why do I notwant to be there? Why don’t I want to hang out withthem? It’s because I progress when I’m by myself.I’ve learned that I’m a loner at heart.
How did the dance influence on the new album come about?
It was actually a process, during 2024 and 2025. I’m not someone who likes going out a lot, but I tried to change that. My girlfriend likes going out a little bit more – she’s a DJ – and I got super-inspired by her and her friends. We went to Morocco and it changed everything. I thought, “You know what? Let me come out my comfort zone and let’s figure it out.”
I’m gonna try to experiment as much as I can. I don’t know any other way to be.
You’ve also recently launched your new party concept, Club Blue. Were the two things linked?
The idea started a few years ago, because for the lasts ix years or so I’ve toured and performed every single year. It got to the point where I got very bored with the after-show stuff or getting paid to come to [clubs] where I’m listening to the music and feelingl ike, “This is boring.” Me and my girlfriend and herfriends started going out and looking for fun places, and there were a few instances when we had somegreat nights. While I was recording my album, it got me thinking, “How does [a great night out]look for me? What’s the music I want to hear? What’sthe vibe I want to experience?” When we threw our own party for my girlfriend’s birthday in Morocco, we figured it out: this is how we should party. All of that inspired Club Blue.
What kind of space do you want Club Blue to be?
I want it to be super-intimate but super-intense. No phones. We’re going to pack in 100 people andplay the best music and have the best time. If you catch it, you catch it; if you don’t, you don’t. My setswere half rap, half dance, and the rap side is all unreleased music. I don’t play any released music; I bring a different artist wherever I’m at, and that artist can come and preview their unreleased stuffand see how people react to it, with no phones, no nothing. It’s not just a dance night, it’s a dance night with mystery, because you don’t know what you’re going to hear.
Performing live is the best. It’s whatI live for. And it builds resilience.
What do you want to achieve with it?
I want to create more real-life experiences. Snippet culture, internet culture and streaming culture are great, but if we don’t make the right moves to shift away from it, we’re all going to become dormant. We’re going to stop listening to music and start looking at numbers. I’m not saying boycott the internet – it’s essential for all of us in our everyday lives, and I’m super-appreciative of that – but I think that when it comes to art and experiencing real moments and things that bring people together, we need to go back to our roots a bit.
Is that why you’ve always prioritised touring?
Performing live is the best. It’s what I live for andwhat I do it for. And it builds resilience. If you canperform in front of a hundred people a hundred times, the day you get to perform in front of a million people you’re not going to be shaken by that – it’ll be your best show ever. Performing is something that, for an artist, will take you further than anything. That’s where you make your money. It’s where you connect with people that listen to your music. That’s the most important thing, aside from making actual music.
You’ve got a foot in the fashion world, having walked the runway for New York label Telfar, collaborated with US brand 1017 ALYX 9SM, andattended shows by Givenchy and Rick Owens. And your look is a big part of who you are as an artist. Where do you get your style sensibility?
My dad had a dry cleaners when I was growing up.He’s handling a lot of clothes, and I’m very observant, especially as a kid. So I’m like, “What’s this dress? What’s this material? What’s this suit?” And my dad had a strong sense of style. He was a suit king. Henever really dressed casual – that was lazy. But right now I’m loving minimalism: plain tops and jogging bottoms. I’m not retwisting my hair every five minutesor dyeing it. I’m enjoying being a plain Jane.
All the proceeds from your most recent mix tapeare going to a charity that supports independent musicians. What influenced that decision?
A lot of new artists that are unsigned are following label guidelines. Why are you dropping your music on Friday? Why are you worried about Spotify playlists? Build an audience and do things your way! Artists are getting undervalued more and more each day. This is the cause I’m doing it for, but other artists don’t have to do it for charity – you can do itfor yourself and pay your people and feed your team. Luckily, I’m in a position to do this.
How have you built the confidence to feel sofree from constraints?
Even when I was a baby, I felt the same way I feelnow, and I get more confident as I get older, becauseI feel I’ve withstood certain things. To do some ofthe things I’ve done, especially when I was younger,you’ve got to have some degree of confidence. Some of the shit I was doing would be considered outlandish. Growing up in Newham, it’s such a wildplace, but I enjoyed it – even the bad things. When I travel the world now and I meet people and shaketheir hand, I have a certain grip I might never have had if I hadn’t experienced my past.
What do you hope people take from your music?
Once, I was talking to someone much younger thanme, and they said something I never forgot. They were like, “Bro, when I listen to music, I don’t want to think.” I was like, “Damn, I do feel you. I understandwhat you mean.” But then I was like, “Well, I should make something that makes you want to think.”
What are you looking forward to?
To touring my album this year, with more than 40 shows across four continents. To Club Blue – it’s another way to challenge myself and help build out the world I’m trying to create. Playing a DJ set ata global Red Bull summer party [to be announced soon] is another way I can bring this to life. It’s all about having the best type of fun possible.